'Art and science and procreation, that's about all life is good for:' Two former freeware developers are still trying to keep it weird in an era when companies 'sell games to people in 5-second clips'

Clay sculpted faces arranged in giallo movie poster style — (Image credit: Talha & Jack Co)

Talha & Jack Co⁠—the indie dev duo Jack King-Spooner and Talha Kaya⁠—are on to something special. The pair is currently working on Abide, their third game in as many years, yet nothing they make has any of that insubstantial, game jam feel you might expect from a quick turnaround⁠.

They do experimental, memorable, hefty games held down by King-Spooner's eccentric, stop-motion-animated art. It's harder than ever to stand out, but they do, and I wanted to get to the bottom of how they do it when we sat down for a recent interview.

ABIDE Trailer - YouTube

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"Game design experimentation is done on a commercial scale these days, with real budgets and time that you have to put into projects in order to find people who might appreciate it," Kaya told me when asked how the industry has changed since they started.

"But budgets and times usually require funding, publishers, and these money people need numbers to know they will make their money back, which kind of conflicts with the nature of experimentation and trying to push the boundaries of the medium."

When the pair met through the site Game Jolt, it was a very different industry: The indie scene was more novel, with an individual project able to breathe and have a better chance of standing out in a less crowded field. They were, to quote Kaya, "just making weird shit and having fun." Kay and King-Spooner eventually decided to make a game together, and the resulting druidic adventure, Judero, was one of my favorites of 2024.

Kaya recalled that genre expectations were less strict for indies, and that it was possible to get people and press talking about quick, experimental prototypes. "Nowadays it’s much more about what you can present in a short video form, on TikTok and Instagram," Kaya argued. "Companies have figured out that they can A/B test entertainment, sell games to people in 5-second clips instead of 10+ minute thoughtful reviews. And that means it’s harder to sell a game that you need to really sit down and spend time with to appreciate. Less room for nuance."

As for the pair's development speed, Kaya pointed to code and animation systems that they can bring forward with minimal added effort. Creatively, King-Spooner attributed it to them not being too precious or perfectionist about their ideas, even as they took big swings with those ideas. Their tight budgets also don't allow much room for waffling.

While both would be amenable to more time and resources on their productions, King-Spooner argued that "higher production values don't necessarily mean a better conveyance of meaning." His case and point? The $18 million per episode Netflix adaptation of One Piece, vs. the probably just whatever it took to keep Eiichiro Oda in coffee and cigarettes manga.

I'd have been remiss if I didn't ask about King-Spooner's signature visual style: Clay creatures, sometimes freestanding, sometimes modifications of G.I. Joes or the like, digitized into assets for the pair's games. "Honestly, it’s simply the easiest way for me," was his simple answer. "I just like making things."

Even coming to formal schooling late, King-Spooner has always been an artist, "the medium that is only interested in meaning," as he put it, asserting, "Art and science and procreation, that's about all life is good for."

Judero Trailer 2 - YouTube

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"I compulsively made things," said King-Spooner. "A smoking jacket made from tobacco pouches, rewiring telephones to play prerecorded messages for people to stumble across, collecting shit paintings from thrift shops and installing them in a courtyard with blurbs so it was an exhibition of 'unloved art'.

"Then when studying I used the time to make more things and try to connect with like-minded people but they all seemed posh and lazy and too busy having ideas and not making things."

The next thing Talha & Jack Co. is making, Abide, is still fundraising on Kickstarter, requiring $9,000 more to meet its initial goal with eight days to go. The duo's entire back catalogue⁠—including the games they each worked on before coming together⁠—is currently on sale on Steam for just $15 until February 24.

Ted has been thinking about PC games and bothering anyone who would listen with his thoughts on them ever since he booted up his sister's copy of Neverwinter Nights on the family computer. He is obsessed with all things CRPG and CRPG-adjacent, but has also covered esports, modding, and rare game collecting. When he's not playing or writing about games, you can find Ted lifting weights on his back porch. You can follow Ted on Bluesky.

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