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    Old 01-17-2013, 01:44 PM
    Belimawr Belimawr is offline
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    Where did it say that? MSV could be cleared in full 463 blues correct, but the hc modes needed at least half ur gear in the 489 normal's to clear full hc. The main boss tier ppl have used VP upgrades on HC gear is Terrace as its the hardest one to clear.
    I never said heroics were tuned for 463, but the majority of people needing the "nerf" are those stuck in normal mode. the point I made was it brought your ilevel close to the loot dropped from heroic if you upgraded normal gear, meaning the point was you could get further in normal as you were basically using gear close to the reward for killing heroic.

    so the point is it was a nerf as you could go more or less to the next gear level up. so if you started with LFR gear you could bring it close to normal gear drops, then if you got the normal gear you could bring it close to the drop for heroic mode.

    so 436 was what the dungeons were tuned for in "normal" mode, this is why I said it makes you out gear it even more as you can upgrade gear to close to the same level as the reward from the tier above. meaning it is obviously massively more than you actually need to kill it.
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    Old 01-17-2013, 06:36 PM
    Klogaroth Klogaroth is offline
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    The item upgrade has created several problems for every new raid tier.

    Scenario A)
    Loot from 5.0 raids will go down in potential as 5.2 hits if the upgrader is removed.
    This is an odd situation where a piece of loot gets worse from one reset to the next.
    It serves as a sort of time penalty for not killing bosses before 5.2.
    It does have the advantage of pushing people towards the 5.2 raids.

    Scenario B)
    If the item upgrader can only upgrade 5.0 gear it does odd things to gearing and progression.
    The item level of gear seems to be falling such that upgraded HoF and terrace heroic loot will be better than normal mode loot from 5.2. If a system was implemented to only allow 5.0 gear to be upgraded guilds who would normally be working on 5.2 normals might feel obligated to spend more time than they want to continuing to work on 5.0 heroics, because once upgraded the gear is better. It would also mean that guilds wanting to progress on heroic 5.2 raids might feel obligated to continue to farm an entire extra tier of content, because the loot is better than what they are obtaining from the 5.2 bosses they are farming on normal.
    Allowing players to still experience the 5.0 content after 5.2 is fine, making people who have already done it farm it for months and months is not.

    Scenario C)
    If the item upgrader remains it greatly devalues the VP gear available in 5.2. Buying VP gear is a long term nerf to your character, as you won't be able to upgrade as many items.
    It creates the odd situation where you deliberately slow your short term character progression. This means that your character is weaker than they should be during progress, in exchange for being more powerful during farm. This is not a situation that lends itself to killing bosses.


    Looking at the various issues, and there may be many more not detailed here, removing the upgrader for now seems to be the best option. It means that players can focus on a new tier instead of trying to progress on 2 fairly sizeable tiers at once. IT also means that largely players will be looking to get the new gear. Sure upgraded heroic pieces will be better than normal mode gear, but guilds with upgraded heroic pieces will probably be looking to do 5.2 heroics rather than just farm normal. It means that going back to do 5.0 heroics is to do with wanting to clear the content, rather than feeling it needs to be done to gain an advantage for the 5.2 content.

    Trying to do up to 10 5.0 heroic bosses, some of which you may (read will for 90 odd % of players) still be progressing on for gear at the same time as progress on any newer heroic content would really suck.

    Giving players too many options too many options for where to spend their VPs makes it a very difficult choice. Not only would you have to choose which vendor item is best to get, you would then have to work out if it would be better to even get any vendor items at all. Followed by working out which item to upgrade.
    This seems to parallel what can happen with certain loot systems. People won't accept upgrades because they are holding out for a trinket or a weapon to upgrade, making it harder to kill the boss that drops the weapon or trinket in the first place.
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    Last edited by Klogaroth; 01-17-2013 at 06:41 PM.
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    Old 01-17-2013, 10:48 PM
    Ayumis Ayumis is offline
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    That's a good analysis of the situation Klog.

    I think PvP gear is also playing its part as they stated that they'll lower the ilevel of next seasons honor gear but increase its pvp power so players don't use it to jump the 5mans and 5.0 vp and lfr gearing process.

    The up side is it has provided an interesting discussion for the forums
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    Old 01-18-2013, 01:13 AM
    Zalid Zalid is offline
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    Agreed. Nice analysis Klog
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