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    Old 08-21-2010, 12:27 PM
    leviethan leviethan is offline
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    Id like to just make this clear about Sub spec currently, It is viable for PvP in so many ways, But it will only work if you can use it properly and skillfully, if you master it, your onto a much better spec for certain classes/spec's (Plus its good in Wg to shadowstep past the walls). Iv had a sub spec rogue vs me many times in arena and they hurt, but you have to a good few weeks of spare time getting it mastered, then good stuffs.
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    Old 08-21-2010, 03:19 PM
    Zael Zael is offline
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    It's kind of hard to theorycraft in terms of gear Yk just because the subtlety build simply isn't finished and will be changed before release. It looks though that they're focusing on PvP making it a proper build rather than the half build it is at the moment, and just leaving PvE to the two other specs.
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    Old 08-24-2010, 03:13 PM
    Cataclysmic Cataclysmic is offline
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    @ Morg
    Beating rogues in PvP can be either extremely easy, or nigh on impossible
    This is pretty much entirely dependent on their available cooldowns. A rogue with cooldowns is a monstrous opponent, and if they really know what they are doing they can be exceptionally hard to beat.

    However if you catch one without CDs, or can force them to blow their CDs early, you won't have too much of a problem with them.

    If you are being stunlocked, NEVER trinket the first stun - which is cheap shot. Part of what makes rogues annoying is they have 2 utterly brutal CCs which might make you want to trinket. One of these is Kidney Shot - a combo point stun which should be trinketed if you are being wailed on and it looks like you won't be able to survive the duration of the stun.

    If you have a healer, and it looks like you can be kept up, eating Kidney shot might be good, the reason for this is an evil ability rogues have called Blind.

    Blind is one of the longest lock down CCs in the game, and it's on a 2 minute CD. Or a 3 min CD. I honestly can't remember its been ages since I played on my 39 twink rogue. It breaks on damage, but that isn't the issue. If you trinket kidney shot, and start heavily pressuring the rogue, they can blind you and you will be forced to sit in it for the full 10 seconds, giving them time to vanish and reopen on you - except this time you won't be able to trinket the KS.

    Essentially, saving your trinket for blind is one of the ebst thigns you can do, as Rogues will normally use it as a "OH MY GOD I AM ABOUT TO DIE I NEED TO GET AWAY HELP LOL" button - if you can trink it, you can carry on wailing on him.

    In a 1V1 with no healer and not much resilience, trinketting Kidney Shot might be a better move - so basically you need to think about your trinket use, and work out whether you are going to be able to survive a full duration stun lock.

    Some classes have abilities which remove stuns, like Paladins with that ret talent which I can never remember the name of, Mages with blink, or abilities which reduce the damage they take while stunned. If you have an ability like this, try and save your trinket for blind.

    Again though, all of this brings me back to the first point I made, a rogue without cooldowns like Blind, Evasion, Cloak of SUPREME SKILL and vanish etc will be easy, a rogue WITH all of his CDs is gonna be evil.

    If you really struggle against rogues in 1V1 situations, don't worry. Blizzard have categorically stated that the game is not balanced around 1V1s and duels etc - and some classes / specs are simply exceedingly strong in 1V1 fights, Rogues are in this list, along with frost mages, Shadow Priests and several others
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    Old 08-24-2010, 04:29 PM
    Ykyik Ykyik is offline
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    @ Zael

    To me that seems a bit odd for a couple of reasons. (Circa current build direction)

    1. Why would serrated blades be for PvP surely your target is dead way before your 2nd finishing move and if they are not then surely this still has Raid uses (Haste and constant refreshing will in the new system not cause clippling and instead accumulate)

    2. Yes rogues are good at PvP in the same way a frost mage is good at PvP. Yet surely the goal of Blizzard would be to allow any player no matter what class or talent tree they chose to be able to enjoy the two most major aspects of their game. The way they have been tweakinng subtlety so far to me indicates an attempt to bring subtlety into line with the other two trees for raiding while allowing it to maintain its PvP utilities. After all the other two trees can still PvP effectively, so is it not subtlety that gets shafted by being the only tree (bar I think again frost) that gets 'laughed' out if raids.

    Come cataclysm I want to try and raid with my rogue with subtlety. If I get lower dps the the other trees thats fine by me, but of course I can only hope Blizzard will make this misunderstood tree more competetive then it currently is.

    Peace out Mon!
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    Old 08-24-2010, 09:33 PM
    Cambrinus Cambrinus is offline
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    At present as a ret Paladin in PvP rogues are still more of a nusiance than a threat. Happy to absorb the damage from the first stun then absolutely bludgeon them once free. All the same just a few changes in the future could change all that. I still have bad memories of rogues in PvP 4 years ago when they completely dominated.
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    Old 08-24-2010, 11:05 PM
    leviethan leviethan is offline
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    Ok first off, Blind, its not 10seconds CC its 8seconds, and i rarely use it because of hunter pets, and if i do, id kill the pet, run, hide, stealth without vanish (combat ends 5.5seconds? or close) then i can re open, again i rarely do this because i can take down most hunters anyway. Eating kidney isnt always a good idea, even with a healer, i could blind said healer, and have a 3-6-9% damage buff (think its differant will have numbers in the morning) on them while kidney is up, and such hunter will be dead, leaving such healer open for me to do bad things to it, and a 3rd thing, a rogue so rarely gets the opener on an unoccupied hunter, pets and flares and traps suck balls. And even without CDs, I can still kill a hunter, its a myth that a rogue relies on his CDs for almost every single fight he comes across, otherwise i wouldn't be able to kill a helpless soul who comes to close, every 20seconds or so, would I?
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    Old 08-25-2010, 06:25 AM
    Cataclysmic Cataclysmic is offline
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    8 seconds, 10 seconds - either way it is one of the longest CCs in the game - at that kind of duration the difference between 8 and 10 secs is immaterial.

    What spec do you pvp in morg?
    As surv:

    Trinket the KS, then immediately scatter shot the rogue and disengage. Once you have distance, pop concussive shot on him, send pet then slam an explosive shot down his throat. This will pressure him, rogues have few snare breakers aside from vanish, and Cloak for magic ones. If he vanishes without clos, the ticks of explosive shot / your pet / auto shots will break it, and he has just blown a key cooldown.

    If he vanishes and uses clos - you have just made him blow 2 key CDs. Get a flare down inbetween you and him - most rogues will vanish and just run straight at you. If you spot him with flare, send your pet in and load him up with dots. Get a frost trap down between you asap and KEEP DISTANCE. Now you can start kiting him, hitting him with ES whenever its off CD and using black arrow and serpent sting at all times.

    Save detterrance for those "OMG" moments, its an exceptional CD which will save you, but don't waste it by blowing it straight away.

    Then just pray and mash your buttons - rogues will not last long AT ALL if a decently geared hunter is wailing on them at a distance - rogues are pretty squishy, relying on CDs to survive, if you can force those CDs early, your burst will drop him pretty fast
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    Old 08-25-2010, 03:35 PM
    leviethan leviethan is offline
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    8-10seconds means nothing? 2seconds is a lot of time when its a CC, i could get a bandage going, eat something, w.e. And rogues are not squishy without cool downs, far from it, were just squishy compared to not having em up, theres a differance, most rogues with a brain cell, will never run right at you after vanishing. and a final note, the only real way anyone can understand how a rogue works in pvp is playing them, a lot, its much differant to ANY class.
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    Old 08-25-2010, 04:04 PM
    Zael Zael is offline
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    Lev, Ghostcrawler has actually come out and said that in Cata rogues are not going to be so CD dependant because as it is now, you either have your CDs and you win or you don't and you're dead. This is the exact quote "In PvP, we want to reduce the rogue's dependency on binary cooldowns and "stun-locks," and give them more passive survivability in return"


    @Yk

    I don't really get what you're trying to say, rogues don't have to have all three specs viable for PvE. Infact I don't think many classes do have 3 specs that are all perfectly viable for PvE, outputting the same damage. Currently rogues have 2 PvE specs (combat and Muti which are perfectly balanced) and two PvP specs (Muti/envenom/prep and subtlety) some people go down the combat killing spree route but unless you vastly out gear someone a rogue isn't going to do much outside BGs.

    In Cata, Blizz don't have to make all three specs viable for PvE, and at the moment it won't be as effective as the other two specs. This could change though, it just needs a few tweaks to make the rotation more constant and less dependent on the RNG.
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    Old 08-25-2010, 04:27 PM
    Cataclysmic Cataclysmic is offline
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    Zaev is right, not many classes have 3 truly pve viable specs. In fact I think Warlocks are possibly the only pure class which has 3 completely viable dps sepcs, which are fairly close in terms of performance.

    @ Lev
    When we are talking being CCed for 8 seconds, the extra 2 seconds does not make much of a difference.
    The difference between a 2 second stun and a 4 second stun is alot, and could mean the difference between getting a clutch heal off or not.
    The difference between an 8 second stun and a 10 second stun is that someone can't fully hearthstone with the other guy locked out for 8 seconds, whereas they probably could with a 10 second stun.
    8 seconds is such a long time in PvP, that the addition of 2 more seconds is not going to change things dramatically.

    Quote:
    Rogues are not squishy without cooldowns
    Get fully dotted up by a shadow priest or affliction lock with Cload of Shadows on CD and tell me how you get on
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