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    Old 12-29-2010, 07:15 PM
    Klogaroth Klogaroth is offline
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    Default The Rogue Thread

    New thread for discussing rogue theorycraft.
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    Old 12-29-2010, 07:22 PM
    Zael Zael is offline
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    Why should I pick a rogue?
    Rogues are one of four pure dps classes. This means that we have no proper healing or tanking ability to speak of. We are also a purely melee dps class, carrying no real ranged damage attacks. So if you’re looking for a class who can significantly alter the way it plays then you should probably look elsewhere. However we do make up for this lack of versatility, rogues have always been one of the best PvE’rs in the game and to this day rogues are putting out numbers with the best of them. However PvE isn’t their only calling, with the ability to jump in and out of stealth and to lock down an opponent for large chunks of a fight with a variety of stuns, rogues are also one of the best PvP classes around.

    What race should I choose?

    None of these racial bonuses make much of a difference really. Unless you're a total min/maxer you should pick whatever race you like the look of best, because you're going to be staring at the back of his/her head for quite some time.

    Horde
    Undead- The Forsaken get Cannabilize which is a nice skill for getting health up quickly, however with new talents being brought in to help solo’ing rogues this is probably less useful than it was. They also get Will of the Forsaken which removes a charm, fear or sleep every two minutes it has a shared 30 second cooldown with similar pvp trinkets.

    Orc- Axe specialization is very useful giving you an extra 3% expertise on both Axes and Fists. They also get Blood Fury (2970 Attack Power for 15 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown). Finally Hardiness also gives them a 15% reduction on stun durations.

    Troll- Beserking will give you a 20% attack speed buff for 20 seconds on a 3 minute cooldown. They can also reduce movement impairing effects with Da Voodoo Shuffle.

    Blood Elves- Arcane Torrent will give you a 2 second, 8 yard radius AoE silence which also gives you 15 energy and all this is on a 2 minute cooldown. They are also more resistant to magic lowering your chance to get hit by spells by 2%.

    Goblins- Goblins get a passive 1% attack speed buff which is nice, they also get a ranged AP modified nuke which is on a 2 minute cool down. They also have a rocket boost that functions somewhat similarly to the hunters disengage, which shares it's cool down with the nuke. Best Deals Anywhere is also handy because it'll lower the cost of your repairs.

    Summary: Goblins and Orcs are the two strongest races in terms of PvE, with Undead being the weakest. PvPwise pretty much all classes have their different utilities so it doesn't really matter.

    Alliance
    Humans- They have a mace/sword specialisation which gives them +3 expertise while wielding those weapons, so that's nice for combat rogues. Every Man for Himself is a nice PvP trinket and Diplomacy will make those rep grinds easier

    Dwarves- Mace spec which works the same as humans, and they have stoneblood which works as a less effective Cloak of Shadows, but it's always nice to have another death saving cooldown.

    Night Elves- They have a sort of vanish in shadowmeld except it doesn't drop threat or trigger Overkill. They have a -2% chance to get hit, but you shouldn't really be getting hit often enough for evasion to be off cooldown. They also have extra nature resistance.

    Gnomes- Shortblade specialisation is nice with it's 3+ expertise to daggers and one handed swords. Escape artist is great for breaking snares and they also have a bonus to Arcane resistance.

    Worgen- 1% passive increase to crit and another weaker form of sprint. They also have a resistence to both nature and shadow.

    Summary: Worgen are the strongest race for PvE, with Night Elves being the weakest. Gnomes are the best for PvP.

    So what’s the best way to level this stabber?
    Your best bet is the Assassination tree while levelling at the beginning. While it is important to note that the other two trees are fine, Assassination will mean you almost never take damage and what hits you do let through will be easily covered by a permanent recuperate thanks to Deadly Momentum. Open from stealth with a cheap shot, Mutilate twice and then either Eviscerate if he’s about to die or Cheap shot again and repeat if the mob has health remaining. Once you go into the Cataclysm zones you'll want to switch to Combat as it offers better cooldowns and survivability to deal with the harder hitting mobs. Your levelling progression should go as follows.

    10-13: 3/3 Lethality
    15-17: 2/2 Deadly Momentum
    19-21: 2/2 Quickening
    23-27: 3/3 Puncturing Wounds
    29: Cold Blood
    31-35: Vile Poisons
    37: 1/2 Deadly Brew. This helps with mobs that are running away, and you need the point anyway.
    39-41: 2/2 Seal fate
    43-47: 3/3 Coup de Grace
    49: Overkill
    51: Master Poisoner
    53-57: 3/3 Ruthlessness
    59-63: 3/3 Cut to the Chase
    65-67: 2/2 Venomous Wounds
    69: Vendetta
    71-73: 2/3 Precision

    Then you should respec to combat and build your tree like this: [url]http://www.wowhead.com/talent#fbZfGccRc0RGo[/url] Then put three points into Coup de Grace which will take you to 80. Then on the path to 85 put 2 points into Quickening and then put your last two points into Lethality which will take you to 85. Once you hit 85 get rid of your levelling spec and choose an endgame spec from below.
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    Old 12-29-2010, 07:23 PM
    Zael Zael is offline
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    I’ve hit 85 what is the best spec for me?

    With the new expansion specs and talent trees have gotten completely revamped. There are much less filler points and the idea is that every skill you choose will have a significant impact on your game. Assassination is currently the leader in terms of PvE dps, with Combat only a little behind. Subtlety trails with a 10% decrease in dps from Combat, since it's not a proper spec yet i'm going to focus mainly on Assassination and Combat.

    Assassination: Blizz describes this path as “A deadly master of poisons who dispatches victims with vicious dagger strikes”. Slower dagger for the mainhand, about a speed of 1.8 and a fast on the offhand.

    [url]http://www.wowhead.com/talent#fcIfzsMdoGo0bZbhc[/url]

    Floater points: The point in deadly Brew can be moved around, putting it into Precision if you don't want a snare is probably the best choice.
    Prime Glyphs: Mutilate, Backstab, Rupture.
    Rotation: Open from stealth with Mutilate, then use Slice and Dice. Mutilate untill you have 4 or more Combo Points and then use Rupture. From then on you want to keep using Mutilate untill you have 4+ combo points and then either refresh Rupture if it's going to expire, if not use envenom. Once the bosses health drops below 35% you want to use backstab instead of Mutilate and use your finishers at 5 combo points instead of 4.


    Combat: Blizz describes this path as “A swashbuckler who uses agility and guile to stand toe-to-toe with enemies.” Combat is closer to a Fury warrior with leather than a rogue. Replacing the stabby stab stab stab approach of other rogues to a smashy smash smash chop motto. Combat rogues wield a slower sword/mace/axe in their mainhand and a fast weapon in their offhand. The thing is, the only decent fast weapons so far are daggers, so now Combat rogues will also be interested in fast daggers.

    [url]http://www.wowhead.com/talent#fMGZcGfcocbRGo0h[/url]

    Floater points: Improved Sprint and Blade twisting. You can move these points anywhere you like really, Improved Kick can be handy for those interrupt fights or Improved Recuperate.
    Prime Glyphs: Sinister Strike, Adrenaline Rush and Slice ‘n’Dice.
    Rotation: Right, well you have a choice here. For the most complex rotation you have to keep S'n'D up while using sinister strikes to get you 4 combo points. You use Revealing Strike when you're at 4 combo points to give you the fifth. You then use those combo points for either Rupture if it's down or Eviscerate if Rupture has enough time on it. However, you can drop Revealing Strike and Rupture from your rotation at a dps loss of only 2%. In that case your only worry is to keep S'n'D up while using Eviscerate and 5 points.

    Subtlety: Blizz describes this path as “A dark stalker who leaps from the shadows to ambush his unsuspecting prey.” Basically dagger wielding rogues who rely on rapid combo point generation to give them a lot more finishing moves. It seems to be everyone’s favourite spec even though it has been broken for quite a while. A lot of people are keen to branch in to subtlety with this patch so here is my advice, don't. Seriously if you want to be serious about end game raiding by choosing this spec you'll be nerfing your dps by a huge margin, and no serious team will have you.

    [url]http://www.wowhead.com/talent#fMhcZ0bZcGcsdu0RGo[/url]

    Floater points: Enveloping Shadows, you can move this point to Elusiveness or Cheat Death if you’re feeling lucky.
    Rotation: Keep SnD up, put Recuperate up if its down, and spam Eviscerate to roll Rupture. Backstab is your main attack, Hemo is a DPS loss. Vanish/Ambush on cooldown for Find Weakness, switch to Ambush spam during Shadow Dance.
    Prime Glyphs: Backstab, Slice'n'Dice and either Eviscerate or Shadow Dance, because no one has modelled it enough to be sure which is better.

    What’s this about poisons?

    Poisons are one of the standout features that separates the rogue class from the other Dps’ers. We have the ability to add a poison onto our weapon that is a like a second enchant. You should never go without poison on your weapon once you’ve learned how to use them. They can be bought from vendors usually beside your trainers. Poison comes in many different types however and understanding them is key to being able to use them efficiently.
    Some poisons work on a PPM (proc per minute) basis. PPM is based on the speed of the weapon so you will get the same number of procs on a fast weapon then you will on a slow one. The direct damage poisons (Instant and Wound) are PPM poisons while Deadly, Crippling and Mind-Numbing poisons are based on percentage based procs (i.e. the weapon speed does matter).

    Instant Poison: This gives you a simple increase to your base damage.
    Wound Poison: Similar to instant poison however it deals less damage but with a greater PPM. It also reduces all healing effects used on that target by 25%.
    Deadly Poison: This poison applies a damage over time (DoT) debuff that will stack up to 5 times. Once you’ve gone past that limit further applications will instead proc the poison on your other weapon.
    Crippling Poison: Slows your target by 70% for 12 seconds, its proc rate is 50%.
    Mind-Numbing Poison: This will slow your targets casting speed by 30%. Again its proc rate is 50%.

    Summary: For PvE Instant on your Mainhand and Deadly on your OH and throwing weapon.

    PvP is a bit more varied. Wound poison despite its nerf will still be the mainhand poison of choice. The offhand comes down to your spec.
    Assassination : Crippling poison isn't needed thanks to Deadly Brew, so use Deadly on the off hand for envenoms.
    Combat: The improved Blade Twisting can be used as a substitute for Crippling, so combat rogues can use either Wound on their off hand aswell or Mind-Numbing to deal with caster. Ideally have two weapons with both poisons in your bag ready to swap depending on who you come up against.
    Subtlety : Would have to use Waylay as it’s crippling poison alternative and since trying to land a positional based attack on an enemy when they don’t have a snare is so difficult Crippling poison on the offhand is a much easier approach.
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    Old 12-29-2010, 07:23 PM
    Zael Zael is offline
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    How should I equip myself?
    Rogues are a leather armour based class, there is no reason a rogue should ever have to equip cloth. You get a 5% bonus to agility if you wear leather in all slots. Just be careful on choosing the right type of leather, druid casters will also wear leather but the stats theyíll be looking for is spell power, spirit, intellect etc.

    The weapons youíll be using is determined on which spec you decide to go for. Assassination and Subtlety specs will want to use two daggers. Your main hand should have a slower attack speed, (something like 1.8) and your main hand will need to be faster, (anything below 1.4). Combat will want a slow mainhand (about 2.6) and a fast offhand, currently the only fast offhands in the game are daggers so now all rogues will be looking for daggers. When gearing yourself especially for the endgame itís important to learn to avoid the item level and determine itís worth on the stats it carries. So this leads me nicely into the next section.

    What Stats are important for me?

    While Deathwing brings chaos and panic throughout Azeroth the big nasty dragon has actually simplified much of the Rogues more complicated mathsy bits. Nasty things like Attack power and Armour Penetration are being shoved aside for the more easily deduced stats of Agility and Haste. It must be said however that rogues are still an extremely math oriented class, so much so that every single guide that takes itself seriously will tell you to use a spreadsheet in order to work out the more complicated decisions. Rogues do not tell you to get a spreadsheet to sound elitist, it is just simply because some of the more advanced gemming or gearing problems require such intricate maths that it is much simpler to get a computer to do it. EP= equvilance point and it's a number that helps put into numerical terms the damage gained from one point of a particular stat. Here are the Ep values of the stats so far.


    pre:

    Stat Assassination Combat Subtlety
    Agi 2.6 2.7 3.5
    Yellow Hit 1.75 1.9 1.4
    Spell Hit 1.4 1.4 1.05
    Mastery 1.3 0.9 0.7
    Haste 1.2 1.5 1.3
    Expertise 1.1 1.6 1.15
    Crit 0.9 0.95 1.1
    White Hit 0.75 1.1 0.8


    Summary: Pretty obvious really,
    Assassination Agility > Spell Hit > Mastery > everything else.
    Combat Agility > Yellow Hit > Expertise (to cap) > everything else.
    Subtlety Agility >> Yellow Hit > Haste > Everything else.

    A few Caveats here especially for Assassination rogues. Capping expertise (which is still 26) is no longer required as other stats like spell hit and mastery take preference. This means that some of your attacks are not going to land. One thing to look out for is missing with envenom, you'll still apply the debuff but it won't refresh your S'n'D so keep an eye out for that.

    In terms of hit caps, with 2/3 precision the yellow cap is 481 and with 3/3 its 241. The spell hit cap which is what assassination rogues will be looking for is 1332 with 2/3 and 1127 with 3/3. This however shouldn't be looked at as cap to get to. Look at it instead as something like agility or mastery where the more you have of it the more damage you'll do but it's not something you have to strive to cap before you can raid or anything like that.

    So what gems should I use?

    Gemming is extremely complicated when it comes to rogues. It is impossible for me to tell you outright what gem you should be using so you need to consult your spreadsheet. But in general:

    Red sockets: Delicate Inferno Ruby
    Yellow sockets: Adept Ember Topaz for Assassination or Deft Ember Topaz for combat and subtlety.
    Blue sockets: Glinting Demonseye

    Match the correct colours if the socket bonus is agility, otherwise just stack straight agility with the Delicate Inferno Rubies. This could vary depending on where you are to the spell hit cap, which is why spreadsheets are crucial.

    Meta's are messy at the moment. Currently the requirements on the best metas to activate the bonus is to have more blue gems than red which is just stupid. So untill they correct that you should be using Fleet shadowspirit diamond. Once they correct it you'll be using either Chaotic ShadowSpirit Diamond or Relentless Earthsiege Diamond.

    Ok but what about these enchants?

    Head: 60 Agi/35 Haste - Ramkahen revered.
    Cloak: Greater Critical Strike
    Shoulder: 50 Agi/25 Mastery - Therazane exalted.
    Chest: Peerless Stats
    Bracers: Greater Speed
    Gloves: Greater Mastery
    Legs: Dragonscale Leg Armor
    Feet: Major Agility if youíre assassination, otherwise Assassinís Step.
    Belt: Ebonsteel Belt Buckle with an Agility gem in it.
    Weapons: Landslide

    Right, then there's Glyphs

    The Prime Glyphs have been gone over when we talked about specs. In regards to Major Glyphs, Tricks of the Trade and Feint are important then either Sprint or Blade Flurry depending on your preference.

    Oh god whatís reforging?!
    Reforging is a new addition to WoW and is essentially another way you can nitpick at your gear to give you the best results possible. Basically reforging is something you can use on a piece of gear you have. It will let you choose a stat on it and take half of that stat off and put it into a different stat of your choosing. There are rules however, you cannot reforge stamina or agility, and you can only reforge a stat into resilience but you cannot reforge resilience into a different stat.You also cannot reforge into a stat that is already in that item.

    Assassination: If you're above the spell hit cap then take points from Hit, then Crit and then expertise. Put them into hit if you're below the spell hit cap, then Mastery then Haste

    Combat: Take points from Mastery, Crit or Hit if you're above the spell hit cap. Put them into expertise, haste or hit if you're below the spell hit cap.

    Subtlety: Take points from Mastery or Hit if you're above the yellow hit cap. Put them into Haste, Expertise or Crit.

    Useful Links


    [url]http://www.wowwiki.com/Making_a_macro[/url] : Very handy guide on how to make Macros. Rogues arenít the only class who benefit from having some nice Macros.

    [url]http://www.wowwiki.com/Hit_rating#Calculating_miss_rate[/url] : An indepth explanation of Hit Rating.

    [url]http://wow.filltheglass.org/crit_cap.php[/url] : A crit cap calculator

    [url]http://elitistjerks.com/forums.php[/url] : Pretty complicated and maths based so really only use it as a resource when youíre comfortable with the basics. But the best rogue theorycrafters are found here. The best advice is gained from this website.
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    Last edited by Zael; 12-29-2010 at 07:29 PM.
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    Old 01-04-2011, 05:38 PM
    Zael Zael is offline
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    Although we still don't have a spreadsheet working yet there is an excellent guide to all the raiding gear you're going to see in Cata and it's general EP values based on Aldrianas stat-Ep ratio.

    [url]http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t111218-cataclysm_gear_sheet/[/url]

    It's not as useful as a spreadsheet as it won't compare bits of gear to the other things you have equipped and it won't have any gemming or enchanting advice. But it's still really handy in quickly figuring out the best pieces of gear at the moment.
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    Old 01-05-2011, 09:51 AM
    greenbeermonkey greenbeermonkey is offline
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    sweet biscuits. thats quite possibly the best summary for stabbers i've seen in long whilst without being overly techincal thanks Zael!
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    Old 01-15-2011, 09:24 PM
    Nyhcjedi Nyhcjedi is offline
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    Default Rogue Help

    I am having some trouble with my dps and rotation. I have checked out EJ and MMO champ amongst other sites but I just don't see how I am missing so much dps. I'm lucky to break 5k in a wotlk heroic.


    Issues i may have:



    My rotation<---------------------i typically start out with garrote, then snd, then mut, 4 pt rupture, then i just envenom at 4 cp and mut envenom while keeping snd+ rupture up. I get all sorts of buffs that appear for a short period of time one looks like the envenom icon etc. Should I be letting those buffs fade before i use rupture or envenom again? I honestly don't know.


    Not really understanding what hit, spell hit, expertise, mastery, white hit do. I get attack power, and crit rate, and agility but i really think these secondary stats are ultra confusing. I don't really understand what they do for me and why they are important.



    My armory link is here: [url]http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/emerald-dream/yosucka/simple[/url]

    Before i get my head chewed off I have some pvp gear b/c it is BIS at the moment

    and I am talking about pve here. If anyone could provide some insight or help i really don't know where else

    to turn:
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    Old 01-16-2011, 05:57 PM
    Zael Zael is offline
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    Hi, that rotation you're doing is fine when the mob has greater than 35% health, but when he drops below that you want to start using backstab instead of Mutilate and then using rupture and envenom at 5 combo points. Ideally you want to keep envenom up for as long as possible, so this means that sometimes you want to save your energy and "clip" envenoms. This basically means that when you have 4+ combo points and envenom hasn't run out you should hold off from using it untill it has or untill you have too much energy, 90 is a good cut off point.

    [url]http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/rpb-20.aspx[/url] - This is an addon called Rogue Power Bars and is amazingly useful at showing when your envenom, S&D and Rupture are about to run out. I find it pretty much essential for raiding rogues.

    Hit is pretty simple. Yellow hit is the easiest to cap which is good because you have to. Yellow refers to your abilities, Mutilate,Envenom,Rupture etc. Once that's capped they won't miss. Spell hit usually doesn't affect melee but it does affect poisons so because Assassination Rogues base a lot of our damage on poisons it's a pretty important stat. So you will want to try and cap that as well. White hit refers to your auto attacks, so the damage you'd do if you just attacked and didn't press any buttons. This requires a massively high hit stat and it's unimportant.

    For Assassination rogues hit is a very important stat untill you hit the spell hit cap, which is something like 16%. The exact number is in the guide i've written above.

    Expertise is like hit except while hit is about you missing an attack, expertise is about them dodging,blocking and parrying an attack. The cap is 26 but it's not important for assassination rogues so don't worry about it.

    Mastery for assassination rogues quite simply ups the damage of poisons.

    In terms of stat priority Agility is clear and away the best stat. Then comes hit if you aren't yet spell hit capped, then mastery, haste and expertise, crit is awful and should be avoided/reforged out of. Check out the reforging and gem guide above as well.
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    Old 01-20-2011, 05:14 PM
    Nyhcjedi Nyhcjedi is offline
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zael View Post
    Hi, that rotation you're doing is fine when the mob has greater than 35% health, but when he drops below that you want to start using backstab instead of Mutilate and then using rupture and envenom at 5 combo points. Ideally you want to keep envenom up for as long as possible, so this means that sometimes you want to save your energy and "clip" envenoms. This basically means that when you have 4+ combo points and envenom hasn't run out you should hold off from using it untill it has or untill you have too much energy, 90 is a good cut off point.

    [url]http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/rpb-20.aspx[/url] - This is an addon called Rogue Power Bars and is amazingly useful at showing when your envenom, S&D and Rupture are about to run out. I find it pretty much essential for raiding rogues.

    Hit is pretty simple. Yellow hit is the easiest to cap which is good because you have to. Yellow refers to your abilities, Mutilate,Envenom,Rupture etc. Once that's capped they won't miss. Spell hit usually doesn't affect melee but it does affect poisons so because Assassination Rogues base a lot of our damage on poisons it's a pretty important stat. So you will want to try and cap that as well. White hit refers to your auto attacks, so the damage you'd do if you just attacked and didn't press any buttons. This requires a massively high hit stat and it's unimportant.

    For Assassination rogues hit is a very important stat untill you hit the spell hit cap, which is something like 16%. The exact number is in the guide i've written above.

    Expertise is like hit except while hit is about you missing an attack, expertise is about them dodging,blocking and parrying an attack. The cap is 26 but it's not important for assassination rogues so don't worry about it.

    Mastery for assassination rogues quite simply ups the damage of poisons.

    In terms of stat priority Agility is clear and away the best stat. Then comes hit if you aren't yet spell hit capped, then mastery, haste and expertise, crit is awful and should be avoided/reforged out of. Check out the reforging and gem guide above as well.



    See i reforged to hit and I'm confused. How do I know if I am hit capped? And if I reforge to hit cap how then do I raise the rest of the stats such as mastery and yellow hit etc. This whole reforging process is 100% confusing and truthfully the more I read from here, the wow forums, or elitist jerks the more it just makes me more dazed and totally unsure of what to do.


    [url]http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/emerald-dream/yosucka/simple[/url]


    was reforging to hit the right move in my case?

    Last edited by Nyhcjedi; 01-20-2011 at 05:23 PM.
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    Old 01-20-2011, 06:28 PM
    Zael Zael is offline
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    Yeah you need a lot more hit, you're on 9% there but you're also carrying a Horde Lace so it will probably go up. The hit cap isn't something you're going to get a warning about or something where you just stop getting the stat when you hit it. "Hit Cap" is a theorycrafting word, which basically means that at a certain point that stat becomes less useful to you, that point is the "cap". In your case you'll want to be aiming for about 17% hit because that's the "cap". The problem with your pvp gear is that while they do give you more agility then your average blue gear which is great you can't reforge resilience so that's an absolutely wasted stat for PvE which is very bad.

    Are you sure your PvP stuff is BiS? Because according to [url]http://shadowpanther.net/starter-pve.htm[/url] it's not. So you might want to start changing that stuff.

    Reforging is pretty simple really, you take 40% off a stat you don't like and add 40% to a new stat you want. So it's great for getting rid of stats that aren't great (like crit) and putting it to better use (like hit.) Once you get to around 17% hit that stat starts becoming less useful so the preference now becomes Mastery.
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