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    Old 02-11-2011, 07:33 AM
    Cataclysmic Cataclysmic is offline
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    Default Fire Mages stat discussion

    Hai guys
    So recently (snce 4.0.6) there has been alot of discussion regarding haste Vs crit. People are starting to say that, due to ignite munchung, haste might be a better stat for Fire mages. Overall it seems that Haste and crit are relatively close, and that which is better depends on your gear. I ran a simcraft test just now using my Mage's gear, and here is the graph that I ended up with:



    We can see from this that haste is a stupidly better scaling stat for me. The likely reason for this is that I have been reforging out of it and gearing for crit, meaning that I am probably not even at the soft cap for another tick of LB and Pyro unless I pop my racial ability.

    Could some of the other Mages run a simcraft test using their gear? Would be interesting to see how the stat weights / values change based on gear - my Mage is only average item level 341 equipped.

    Brb off to reforge all my gear again
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    Last edited by Cataclysmic; 02-15-2011 at 09:39 AM.
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    Old 02-11-2011, 01:46 PM
    Akee Akee is offline
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    That single target?

    I'm no fire mage so my gear would be all squiggly for a test.
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    Old 02-11-2011, 02:32 PM
    Cataclysmic Cataclysmic is offline
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    Yeah single target of course, Fire Mage DPS on cleave fights is so ludicrously high that it would skew the results. Fire is I believe still the premier single target Mage spec however until you get the [URL="http://www.wowhead.com/item=60233/shard-of-woe"]trinket from Sinestra[/URL], which reduces the base mana cost of your spells. According to top mage Arcane is perhaps viable for some fights with this trinket, fights with damage buffing burn phases such as Magmaw, where you can pop cooldowns and burst for a ridiculous amount.

    Without the trinket Arcane is simply not mana efficient enough to compete with Fire over long fights, and seeing as how there are so many fights which have multiple targets or which require abit of AoE (Omnitron adds, Magmaw, Halfus, Valiona due to dotting the second drake with LB, Ascendant Council, Cho'gall and Nefarion are all examples of where Fire will almost certainly be superior) I am confident that Fire will still reign supreme until Blizzard gives the Arcane spec abit more of an overhaul.
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    Old 02-11-2011, 08:37 PM
    Zalid Zalid is offline
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    Could you provide a linky to the one you used Cata ?
    Never used a simcraft before and there seems to be a couple of them.
    Now I see why rawr was pushing haste so much. Had me wondering

    That trinket is ridiculous.
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    Old 02-11-2011, 10:36 PM
    Klogaroth Klogaroth is offline
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    I believe its trying to push you towards 1425 haste. At this point LB, FFB, and pyro dot will get an extra tick with BL and berserking popped.
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    Old 02-11-2011, 10:41 PM
    Klogaroth Klogaroth is offline
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    Here's my table with 17% hit, 13.65% haste and 16.93% unbuffed crit (as in with no mage armor)

    Secondaries are kind of intertwined a bit now I've hit the 2nd combustion tick theshold.

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    Old 02-12-2011, 05:34 AM
    Cataclysmic Cataclysmic is offline
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    That's very interesting, so it seems haste is a real plateau type stat, once you have enough then it's value is near enough to crit that it doesn't matter. Though looking at your graph it looks like crit is going up and up towards the end, where haste has hit a plateau.

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    Old 02-12-2011, 05:31 PM
    Klogaroth Klogaroth is offline
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    Yeah, due to the way hasted dots work haste has very defined plateaus of usefulness. If you can hit the next tick of combustion or the next tick of LB, pyro etc then go for it. If you can't then haste will be somewhere in the region of almost exactly the same as crit. Should ignite munching ever be fixed then crit will be the big stat, but that may not ever occur. Ignite munching is also the reason mastery is kept low on the list of good stats.
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    Old 02-15-2011, 09:38 AM
    Cataclysmic Cataclysmic is offline
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    Here's my latest graph, with 17.32% hit, 11.34% haste and 16.55% unbuffed crit. Simcraft settings used were 10k iterations, 450 sec fight length, player skill set to average with no smooth RnG.



    Seems like now haste and crit have intertwined with me now that I have gotten much better gear. (Average ilvl 350 equipped now)

    Mastery is predicatably weak, but interestingly if you look closely at the graph, it seems haste is starting to go up again (it is slightly better than crit for me at the moment). I wonder whether, by the end of that graph, it is starting to think "go for the next breakpoint"
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    Old 02-15-2011, 05:47 PM
    Klogaroth Klogaroth is offline
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    Spell............................................. ....+1 Tick ....+2 Tick .....+3 Tick.....+4 Tick.....Notes.
    Living Bomb.....................................12.5%.... ...37.5%......62.5%.......87.5%.
    Pyroblast (Dot).................................12.5%....... 37.5%......62.5%.......87.5%.
    Frostfire Bolt (Dot from Glyph)......12.5%........37.5%......62.5%.......87 .5%.
    Combustion.......................................5 %...........15%..........25%. ........35%.
    Ignite............................................ ......Ignite does not gain any additional ticks from Haste.

    These are the various haste tiers for things.

    3/3 netherwind presence accounts for 3% - this shows on your character sheet.
    Goblins get 1% - this shows on your character sheet.
    Berserking grants 20% haste
    Bloodlust grants 30% haste.

    It gets complicated when I tell you that haste is multiplicative and not additive. Here's the formula by which it works to obtain the 1st 12.5%:

    1.03 (Netherwind Presence Talent) x 1.05 (Hybrid Haste Raid Buff) x 1.xx (Haste Required from Gear) = 1.125

    Gear = 1.040221914008322

    1% Haste = 128.057 Rating required

    4.0221914008322 x 128.057 = 515.06976 or 516 rating required

    This formula can be expanded to to include berserking and bloodlust like so:
    1.03 (Netherwind Presence Talent) x 1.05 (Hybrid Haste Raid Buff) x 1.3 (Bloodlust) x 1.2 (Berserking) x 1.xx (Haste on Gear) = Actual haste value

    Once you know this you can see how close you are to extra ticks of things with a variety of buffs by moving BL and berserking in and out the equation.
    I'd say the important ones as a troll are the berserking and berserking with bloodlust values.

    Last edited by Klogaroth; 02-15-2011 at 06:03 PM.
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