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    Old 12-26-2010, 06:47 PM
    leviethan leviethan is offline
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    Just had another little look at the guide, and iv got a thing or two to add;
    With the combat talent build you have there, putting points into 'coup de grace' is a complete waste as a rupture rotation - through my own testing, and what seems to be, from the number crunchers, a bit better then an eviscerate rotation - but the two points in 'ruthlessness' i can see why you would want them, but i'v found it far more useful, having them in points like blade twisting etc, 'floaters' as you called them. I know this can directly nerf your dps, but since cata isnt all about just hitting bosses mega mega hard (And a lot more about being able to survive, and be more flexible). Thats my opinion mainly and i know from my build, maybe if i took the points out of say my improved stealth speed and CD and put em in recuperate etc, i'm still playing with it and i'll get back to this eventually.

    Also with the sub part, you dont want two daggers (You shouldnt be sub PvE anyway but if you are, or in pvp) you want a 1.80/1.70 dagger main hand and a 2.80 weapon in your off hand (Doesnt matter what, just make sure it hits hard), as it hit for a lot more and you dont rely on your auto attacks nearly as much in sub.

    Just my thoughts, also ambush and garrote dont hit for much, so id take a mutilate opener over either in assassination, but thats just my opinion.

    Last edited by leviethan; 12-26-2010 at 06:51 PM.
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    Old 12-27-2010, 08:52 AM
    Cataclysmic Cataclysmic is offline
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by leviethan View Post
    Just had another little look at the guide, and iv got a thing or two to add;
    With the combat talent build you have there, putting points into 'coup de grace' is a complete waste as a rupture rotation - through my own testing, and what seems to be, from the number crunchers, a bit better then an eviscerate rotation.
    Similarly to feral druids in wotlk taking talents to buff Ferocious Bite, despite them not using it very often, it is still a dps boost when you do use it. I expect a combat rogue using a rupture rotation still uses Eviscerate quite abit.

    According to elitistjerks, the difference between a rupture rotation and a non rupture cycle is approximately 2%

    EJ further points out that, on complicated fights, where your target uptime might be less than perfect, dropping rupture could lead to an overall DPS increase due to the simplified rotation.

    I assume the two points in Coup De Grace are needed to reach the next tier of the assassination tree - deadly momentum is far less useful in a raid encounter than more damage on eviscerate for a combat rogue.

    Correct me if I am wrong Zaev, but I reckon that's probably why the points were put into Coup de Grace.

    Looking further at a world of logs report for a combat rogue on Cho'Gall: [url]http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1smw0j5st98otp8t/details/27/?s=8530&e=8970[/url]

    We can see that Eviscerate is responsible for a slightly higher proportion of his damage than Rupture. Arguaably therefore, the points put into Coup De Grace are justified.
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    Old 12-28-2010, 08:28 PM
    Zael Zael is offline
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    Yep, thanks Cata, just to add there is no "Eviscerate and Rupture rotation" if you are using rupture you are still using eviscerate as you said Cata, it's Rupture and non Rupture, because Eviscerate is the main part of both. Lev, dropping talent points that as you say "directly nerf your dps" for survival talents is all well and good if you need. But this guide is assuming you want the best dps guide available, no one is ever going to give you a build that nerfs your dps, ever. I don't want to sound like an arsehole here but I'm going to trust myself with survival and i'll never nerf my dps for talents I don't "need".

    I'll also hold my hand up and say I know very little about subtlety, but everything I've read talks about two daggers. Where are you getting the information that you want an extremely slow offhand?
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    Old 12-29-2010, 08:56 AM
    Cataclysmic Cataclysmic is offline
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    If you are pvping you want a slow MH and a fast OH - there's pretty much no debate about that. Instant on the MH - the slow wep will make it hit alot harder, with deadly on the OH (the fast wep will stack it faster) is what the pvp rogues are saying on Arena Junkies atm. Mind you that might be for assassination - as they get deadly brew so don't miss being able to shiv crippling poison like other rogues might.

    I also heard on AJ that sub is still terrible in pvp Apparently muti is still pretty much the only way to go if you actually want to kill a resilience target.
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    Old 12-29-2010, 04:12 PM
    leviethan leviethan is offline
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    I'v been playing with sub for a while and iv tried two daggers and a dagger/slow mix and iv personally found the dagger/slow a lot more effective.

    But yeah muti is currently better for pvp, i just enjoy sub atm, but thinking on switching, its just how well you can play sub really, but assassination is currently a lot better without to much argument.
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    Old 12-29-2010, 04:13 PM
    Zael Zael is offline
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    Lev i've talked to a few people I know who I would consider top rogues and none of them have agreed with having a slow off hand for sub. They find the idea insane to tell you the truth.
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    Old 12-29-2010, 04:23 PM
    leviethan leviethan is offline
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    I have my own group of high end rogues aswell Zaev, most of them pvp junkies, whom agree with me, but does it matter honestly? I personally find it better my way through several Arena matches, battlegrounds and open world pvp. In all honesty, i rarely find people using sub these days anyway so im not entirely sure why it matters, i know two other people who use it on our server, and thats it.
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    Old 12-29-2010, 04:27 PM
    Zael Zael is offline
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    Yes it does matter, people go to this thread for advice and it would really suck if people got bad advice instead. So if you're going to post something as odd as subtlety rogues should be using slow speed, non-dagger off hand then you're going to have to back it up with more than "I find this works better for me". So please post where you got that information from and why it works better.
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    Old 12-29-2010, 04:30 PM
    leviethan leviethan is offline
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    I used to watch a top end pvp rogue who live streamed, watched it two days ago (But hes stopped doing it now because something to do with work) and that what he used, thats where i got it from.

    As to that point, where are you getting your information from? I'v never personally seen you pvp so cant be from past experience i dont think.





    Also in the end it comes down to skill, a good sub rogue can easily beat a bad assassination, as with any class/spec.
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    Old 12-29-2010, 04:40 PM
    Zael Zael is offline
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    Right well since you can't post anything to back up your point about using a slow off hand, here's why you shouldn't. As Cata said most of rogues' off hand damage comes from poison, the more procs deadly poison has the better and you get more procs by having a faster weapon. That's if you're using deadly poison, if you're using crippling poison you still want a fast off hand because trying to get crippling poison to stick on a target in pvp when you have an off hand attack speed of 2.6 is going to be insanely slow.

    Along with that, you're not going to be white hit capped....ever. White hit is the damage you do on the auto attack and it's the main damage that comes from your off hand if you're not using deadly poison, which as a subtlety rogue in pvp you probably won't be. So that means that along with nerfing the dps of your slow off hand weapon because it's being used in your off hand and not your main it also will hit less. To counteract hitting less you want to hit faster, so using a fast dagger in your off hand will actually increase your white damage because you'll be hitting so fast that missing won't be that big of a deal, unlike missing with a 2.60 speed off hand which will be a huge deal.
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