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    Old 04-23-2011, 07:28 PM
    JackRabbit JackRabbit is offline
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    [url=http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&id=205016][/url]

    OK, so I played like a muppet, but I found this really really funny
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      #122   Report Post  
    Old 04-25-2011, 03:39 AM
    Congo Congo is offline
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    I recognised my opponents name and couldn't recall if this same dude had used Voids in a previous ladder match....So, I started off scouting his base and wasnt' able to get in. However, armed with the advice The Great Donbar and Swiss had given me, I felt I was in better shape against Stargate tech.

    So I scouted and due to the amount of cannons and the fact that he didnt want me looking anywhere near his base I figured he was going air. So I attempted to counter that blindly.
    Infact, in the setup game I made to test Swiss against Donbars pheonix....to see if a Diamond player would counter blindly what me as bronze player could not, even tho I knew it was coming. Swiss encountered a similar situtation at donbars front door and he didn't see any stargates with his overlord either so I said. "How did you know he was going air?" and Swiss said, "He attacked me with only one Stalker, what else would he be doing?" and I had a bit of a penny drop moment there.

    So the game gets underway. Then at some point he showed me a void while he came and saw what I was doing. I realised that this was the guy who'd used the void ray strat gainst me before and won easy with it.

    Infact, that game was on scrap station and I got off to what I thought was a good lead, but stupidly I continued to butt my roaches up against his cannons and the more I took down the more he put up and I couldn't get in because he was using voids at the ramp to support his cannons and I couldn't for the life of me break it down, So I got a tonne of corruptors and his void rays just ate them up....then when he had the critical mass of Voids he just flew across the gap and wiped me out...

    So I thought "I'm not doing that again, I'll try to do something a little cleverer than suiciding roaches against cannons on the ramp"

    anyway, download it and see what happens.
    [url=http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&id=205238][/url]

    I don't fucking know.

    Last edited by Congo; 04-25-2011 at 03:41 AM.
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    Old 04-25-2011, 10:11 AM
    Donbar Donbar is offline
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    Well done for working out what he was doing and fending him off. You certainly learnt a lot from those games you played with me and Swiss.

    I'm beginning to see a pattern in your matches - whatever the match up, whatever unit the enemy uses you always build roaches. For every 2 roaches you had you could have had another Hydralisk. A Hydra/Zergling combination would have worked great against him, his air would be forced to deal with the hydras while the zerglings tear up his base. The zergling numbers would overwhelm an air force of single target units like void rays. And per mineral cost zerglings do more DPS anyway. A bit more flexibility in your builds are probably needed.

    The main problem I saw in that match was he got up to a critical mass of void rays which can be deadly for a zerg. A critical mass of void rays will kill a critical mass of hydralisks but will take heavy casualties at which point you'd use your zerg advantage to reproduce almost your entire army in seconds and be back attacking him within a couple of minutes. You'd need queens spawning larvae at your hatcheries to do that though.

    Only other thing I'll mention is overlord drops. I really liked the distraction at his expansion then overlord drop in his base. These sorts of tactics drive protoss players insane as 9 times out of 10 they always have their army in a one giant ball so lack manoeuvrability. What would have made this so much more better would have been to use a nydus instead of overloards. With overlords you are committed to the drop and either all his units will die or all yours will. With a nydus, you can always back out if you're out gunned. Coupled with the distraction technique you used, you could sacrifice a small group of units at his expansion, move your main force into his base through the nydus, take out a handful of key buildings then high-tail it out of there with no losses to your main force. You're then free to immediately strike at his most distant expansions with another nydus as you know his force will still be at his base.

    Overall, I think you're starting to 'top-out'. Over the past few weeks I've seen that you've learnt a wider array techniques and skills and it's showing in your gameplay. You're just about ready to take your game up another gear and work on developing what you already know rather than broadening you knowledge.

    THis time next month you'll be in silver, I guarantee it.
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    Old 04-25-2011, 11:52 AM
    Congo Congo is offline
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Donbar View Post
    I'm beginning to see a pattern in your matches - whatever the match up, whatever unit the enemy uses you always build roaches.
    Nah, I have another build. I roll banelings into supply depots too.....but yeah I see what you mean, infact I've already seen the same thoughts cross my mind during that game.

    However, I was completely oblivious to the existence of Nydus network again.
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      #125   Report Post  
    Old 04-25-2011, 12:08 PM
    Swiss Swiss is offline
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    Before I even talk about Void Rays, there's a few things I want to say about your mechanics and decisions.

    1) I really really want to encourage you to place that first hatch at your natural instead of in base. Trust me, you CAN defend it - even against a four gate. Look at some of my replays for a basic safe opening against protoss, it looks something like:

    14 gas
    14 pool
    16 OL
    Queen when pool finishes
    2 sets of lings
    Take drones off gas at 100 gas
    Zergling Speed
    2nd Queen and expand when you have the minerals
    Drones back on gas

    There's a lot of flexibility there e.g. you don't have to make a second queen, or you could make more or less lings. This also leads me on to:

    2) Always have at least 2 lings outside the opponents base if possible, it may not have helped you much in this match, but I promise it will in the vast majority. It will let you know if he's expanding, moving out and you can run them up the ramp to get a snapshot of his forces and see if he's teching or massing.

    3) If he's not expanded to his natural by the 10 min mark, suspect a hidden expansion. A few things you can do: run around a ling, place a ling at every other base, or get overlord speed and send an overlord to every other base (this is what I do).

    4) This ties into my first point, but you only had 2 gases the entire time. Get at least 4 for heavy hydra production.

    5) Mutalisks are the air "counter" to void rays, not corruptors. Corruptors are armoured and void rays have bonus damage against them. However I generally think its better to not make a huge tech switch when your current tech is fine; I would have rather seen you make a ton of hydras.

    6) Remember your upgrades.

    7) I felt like when you pushed out to his base, you could have killed at least the majority of those void rays and used your left over roaches to attack his expansions. While reinforcing with more hydras.

    8) When making roaches always always get roach speed. When making Hydras always always get range upgrade for them. Might have been negligible in this match but still would have helped.

    9) Make sure to sort out your rally points as soon as you plop down another base. All your bases should generally have the same army rally point.

    10) You're improving a lot

    That's a lot to take in, and I have the benefit of hindsight and 300+ games. I think the most important thing to note is that it should feel very difficult making a lot of Hydras on one base - because it is. Get your four gas and you'll notice its a ton easier.
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    Old 04-25-2011, 02:58 PM
    Swiss Swiss is offline
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    Had a super long ZvZ today which I very nearly lost early on. After I lost most of my army in my initial roach push, I took a gamble and made a ton of drones in the hope he wouldnt attack me. Luckily it paid off and I was able to out econ him with a better composition.

    Roach/Infestor definately beats Roach/Hydra

    [url=http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&id=205309][/url]
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      #127   Report Post  
    Old 04-25-2011, 06:58 PM
    NoX NoX is offline
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Swiss View Post

    Roach/Infestor definately beats Roach/Hydra

    ]
    Yeah i've been finding alot recently that roach infestor is really potent. It even works fairly well against just mass roach
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    Old 04-26-2011, 02:27 AM
    Congo Congo is offline
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    yeah so I caught up with GLSteve online and immediately started whining about Voids. As a zerg, I am fully involved in my role now. We complain about protoss, it's just what we do.

    So we decided to work on a solution. Steve watched the void ray replay a couple of times to get the BO and we set about trying to defend it. Well, I did, he tried to kill me and was pretty successful.


    we played about 5 games on the same map and used the same strat. I didn't develop out of the ordinary till my drone scout had looked at his front door.

    Without boring you with all the irrelevant replays here's a quick summary.

    Tried roach/hydra again, less roaches more hydra's and a nydus network. Unfortunately his building placement was better than COMMANDER's (the original antagonist) and he saw the exit, killed it and won easy. Fail

    So then I tried fast baneling busts and quick roaches at the front door to no avail, fail fail fail

    Then I just went mass hydra's and mass queens and a huge creep highway. Steve brought over some VR's to my expo, he'd come to harass my probes but decided to stick around and wipe out a 200 food army of queens and hydra's without much difficulty at all...The hydra's took out a couple of VR's but not enough. I remaxed pretty quick but by the time I got to his base the critical mass of VR's and mothership was already in place...fail

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Steve
    I can't believe how easy it is

    Then I thought I try muta's and corruptors. Steve said it was a lot harder because I was hitting him in his minerals but I lost that time because I forgot to get gas and macro up in anyway. fail

    at least I knew what to do and we played this game.

    [url=http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&id=205394][/url]

    Win!!

    I dunno if that's what NesTea or July would do, but it's what I'm gonna do next time I meet Commander and his mass Void Rays
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      #129   Report Post  
    Old 04-26-2011, 07:12 AM
    Swiss Swiss is offline
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Congo View Post
    yeah so I caught up with GLSteve online and immediately started whining about Voids. As a zerg, I am fully involved in my role now. We complain about protoss, it's just what we do.
    It's like making the transformation from a caterpillar to a glorious, whining butterfly. :')

    Good man.
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    Old 04-26-2011, 12:53 PM
    Godl1keStev3 Godl1keStev3 is offline
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    It was an enlightening experience. I almost never go air as protoss, I just like death-balls. But what struck me with this build was how easy it was to use and exploit. He tries to harrass, I have nimble air units to intercept. He trieds to force my front door, I have nimble air units to intercept etc.

    Even when he went all out anti-air, I STILL didnt seem to have any problems whatsoever. The one thing I felt slightly weak about this strat was the 7 min start up with only cannons as defence, and the fact you clinically needed to expand to keep up production of void rays (which is a bit tricky when you have walled yourself in). But even with those flaws, wow, this build was starting to look really OP (and Im a terran player, not a whiny zerg-a-lot :P).

    That last game was actually a story of two parts. The game before it, Congo really kept me on my toes with his mutas. I struggled to expand, I was limited to two stargates for a lot longer and I didnt get carriers or a mothership out, but thanks to the simplicity of the build, I was able to pull ahead. But the seed of a counter had been planted, and Congo wanted blood... watch the replay to see

    I really think those games last night has given both Congo and I an inkling to how the pro guys do it, it wasnt beaten by an army vs another army, it wasn't even beaten by counter units, it was almost all technique. The ability to use every advantage you have to beat something that is inherently over-powered, and pull off a win.

    Well done Congo. Fuckin' well played
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