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    Old 11-19-2012, 03:23 PM
    Evil Plum Evil Plum is offline
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    Many people tend to visualise what came before the big bang as a void. Something that was separate, removed and outside of our universe, wherein neither space nor time existed. I don't think that's a sound visualisation.

    Let's assume that the big bang did happen, and that the universe is expanding. Doesn't matter if the universe will one day stop expanding, or continue expanding, all that matters is that it has been expanding, and still is expanding at the moment.

    Ok, now let's move out to the very edge of that expanding universe, and ask ourselves what is it expanding into? On the very edge of the universe there is a place where there are no atoms, no electrons, no nothing. Literally, a place where there is neither space nor time. A void. The universe fills that void with space and time as it expands, so the void isn't therefore something separate or removed from our universe, but is instead something which our universe can interact with. The very expansion of the universe creates space and time from this void, so I think it's wrong for us to visualise it as something separate, removed and apart from our universe.

    Given that infinity and eternity are terms that require the existence of both space and time, this void can be neither infinite or eternal, and must therefore be something else. Something beyond space and beyond time. If we can understand and manipulate that state, then both time travel and FTL travel become a doddle, as we could then instantly go anywhere or any when that we wanted, as neither space nor time would be an issue.

    Needless to say, the above assumes that the big bang theory is valid, which has yet to be proven.

    Regards - Mr P
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    Old 11-19-2012, 08:05 PM
    agr1ppa agr1ppa is offline
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    Maybe I'm over-simplifying things as I've never had the intellect or patience to get to grips with theoretical physics, but I've never thought of 'time' as an entity to be manipulated; just a term for the rate at which things change.

    Right now things are colliding and reacting and bouncing every which way, but if everything (literally everything - which requires quite a stretch of the imagination) stayed in its current position and state, will time have stopped, or would the 'seconds' continue to pass while everything remains in stasis? If we could just keep ourselves in a state of stasis while the world carried on around us until we were re-activated at a specified time, would that count as time travel? It's essentially the same result for the person concerned.

    I was thinking that in some impossible future, if we were aware of every entity in the universe and could predict its behaviour with literally 0% margin of error (and the computer -which would presumably be the size of a continent- would have to somehow factor itself in) we could predict the future. Assuming chaos is just an illusion and everything is just the result of chain reactions - even our own behaviour.
    Which is a scary thought.

    Ugh, I shouldn't partake in these discussions.
    Anyway, I can't think of time travel (in the way we imagine it) as anything other than fantasy - but if anyone from 5071 is reading this and knows otherwise, please send me a message. Also go back to 1998 and tell me there's nettles under that rope swing.

    Last edited by agr1ppa; 11-19-2012 at 08:14 PM.
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    Old 11-19-2012, 08:10 PM
    agr1ppa agr1ppa is offline
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    [Accidental double post from the future me. Please delete before I start disappearing from family photographs.]
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    Old 11-19-2012, 08:33 PM
    Belimawr Belimawr is offline
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    @Plum, the point is the universe expands but until it expands these areas do not technically exist, so theoretically it shouldnt be possible to go past the edge of the universe as all the energy that makes everything work and time wouldn't exist so nothing should work beyond that point until the energy of the universe expands into it, but this comes back to the point of if the universe started from basically nothing and is expanding where did all this energy comes from since out physics says energy cant be created or destroyed only transferred.

    @Agr, why do you assume a computer would need to be the size of a continent? this is the same thinking from the 60's/70's when a standard computer took an entire room and they though they would take up several rooms and be more powerful by the 80's but the fact is tech is getting smaller and more powerful, it's only a couple of years ago you wouldn't of thought a quad core CPU and 12 core/stream GPU would be in something anywhere near as small as a mobile phone.

    as for stopping stuff they have created near absolute zero on earth and anything that enters it basically stops including light so theoretically if you can stop all movement at a sub molecular level everything including time stops, but the same is also true for extreme gravity, but it isn't time travel it's just a way of causing the person to age slower than everything around them, the same is also true for close the light speed travel, the best example of this in real life was actually concord, if you had 2 watches or timers started at the same time sent one on concord and had the other on the ground as normal, the one on concord would be running several seconds slower on landing due to the fact it could travel faster than the speed of sound, so the faster you go the more this time difference will happen.

    as for tracking the movement of molecules the common belief round that is if you can track them all and can predict their movement you can see the future but it does nothing for time travel it's just a way to 100% see what the future will be, but it is near impossible to track every molecule in the universe and predict how they will all move, so by the time that was even close to possible you have more chance of just having time travel.
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    Old 11-19-2012, 09:25 PM
    Daniel Daniel is offline
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Evil Plum View Post
    Many people tend to visualise what came before the big bang as a void. Something that was separate, removed and outside of our universe, wherein neither space nor time existed. I don't think that's a sound visualisation.
    I don't think Humans are capable of making any sound visualisations of this kind of stuff.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by agr1ppa View Post
    Assuming chaos is just an illusion and everything is just the result of chain reactions - even our own behaviour.
    I think you are misunderstanding chaos theory (or maybe I have) but chaos does not say that everything isn't a result of chain reactions. Rather that everything is a chian reaction but we can not know 100% of the initial conditions of a system. Even if we know 99.9% of the initial conditions the that 0.1% of unknown soon spirals out of control and causes our model to be very wrong. This is why we struggle to forecast the weather accurately for more than a couple of days.

    It is quantum mechanics that suggest that the universe may not be just be one big chain reaction.
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    Old 11-19-2012, 09:33 PM
    Belimawr Belimawr is offline
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    I think you are misunderstanding chaos theory (or maybe I have) but chaos does not say that everything isn't a result of chain reactions. Rather that everything is a chian reaction but we can not know 100% of the initial conditions of a system. Even if we know 99.9% of the initial conditions the that 0.1% of unknown soon spirals out of control and causes our model to be very wrong. This is why we struggle to forecast the weather accurately for more than a couple of days.

    It is quantum mechanics that suggest that the universe may not be just be one big chain reaction.
    it's also quantum theory that has basically proven sub atomic particles can pop in and out of existence at any time, making it physically impossible to predict as you have to predict the actions of something that basically doesn't follow the rules of the universe, in the fact that these particles are technically energy and they are constantly popping in and out of existence meaning energy is getting created and also destroyed.
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    Old 11-19-2012, 10:04 PM
    Evil Plum Evil Plum is offline
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    If we assume that we need to understand and manipulate for want of a better word the "void" (a place outside of time and space), to achieve time travel, then we are going to have to be a very highly advanced civilisation as the the ability to go anywhere or anywhen is the pinnacle of technological achievement. When I say "highly advanced", I'm talking a few billion plus years down the line, and with the boosted help of the scientific input of other species. Some of those species we already share the planet with, so we will need to artificially boost their evolutionary speed, others we will create, (AI, etc), and yet others we will encounter as we expand outwards.

    So, what will humanity be, in a few billion years time? Well, at present we experience the universe with the use of just five senses, and even those function within a very narrow bandwidth. Nobody in their right mind would voluntarily give up an existing sense, because they each enrich our lives immeasurably, so it's logical to assume that the addition of extra senses would enrich our lives even further. It's therefore reasonable to assume that we will over the course of the next few billion years, both add new extra senses and extend the bandwidth of our existing senses. We will be able to see in infrared, or hear in ultra sound, and we will be able to experience the universe using sonar, radar, microwave, etc and a million and one other forms of perception that we have yet to name, discover or understand.

    Needless to say the current human body can't house the sensory receptors needed to perceive the universe in all of these myriad different ways, and so we are going to have to genetically improve it. There is however a limit on what biology and/or mechanical augmentation can do, so it's logical to assume that we are going to have to transcend those limits before we can make use of the "void". The void is beyond both space and time, and I suspect that we will neither understand it or be able to manipulate it, until we become incorporeal beings ourselves, capable of experiencing all aspects of the universe in which we live.

    Once incorporeal however, we would then have no desire to manifest in physical form, because to do so would require us to give up the millions of senses that we have gained by being incorporeal, including those senses that empathically and telepathically linked us to the rest of our species and all other species in a similar state. It would be far, far worse than asking a present day person to lose 4 of their 5 senses, should they wish to travel from point A to point B, because as interesting as point B might be, (2B or not 2B), no sane person would chose to lose 4 of their 5 senses, just to travel somewhere.

    So, once we or any other species become incorporeal, we and they are going to stay incorporeal.

    This explains why, if time travel is possible, we haven't seen future versions of ourselves or other species. If such incorporeal beings have touched the void, and are freely traveling through space and time, then we don't yet have the scientific capacity to be aware of their presence.

    PS: Yes, I know we have more than 5 senses.

    PPS: Yes, by extension incorporeal sentient life born of this or another universe may well have created our universe, using the mechanism of the big bang, given that that they can understand and make use of the void.

    PPPS: I wonder how many species we will artificially accelerate, over the course of the next few billion years? Dogs and cats should represent a safe bet, as we should have a USA / UK type relationship with them, but prawns or cockroaches are gong to be a bit problematic, given how many tens of thousands of years we have either been squashing them or eating them.

    Regards - Mr P

    Last edited by Evil Plum; 11-19-2012 at 10:07 PM.
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    Old 11-19-2012, 10:25 PM
    Belimawr Belimawr is offline
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    see I don't think we will need to shed our physical form to time travel, it's like the theory behind being able to walk through walls (it is supposedly possible if you can excite the particles in the wall while holding our own form) so this void may be impenetrable to our form but then so was space, there is the possibility if we understood enough about the universe it may be possible to make a capsule that can sustain us outside the universe and make a bubble of reality they can use to travel.

    as for artificially advancing a race, while it does seem a good concept you lose survival of the fittest (something the human race lost a long time ago) so you end up with a race getting weaker and less useful, machines and medical science have allowed the weak to live and it undone millions of years of evolution as we lost the need for those skills. so unless you could fine a way to set a group of a animal to live with humans around, but not policed by us or really helped by us, but have their mutations (evolution) sped up then you have a race that will have to develop similar to how we did but then you also have the problem of this race could then over throw us. so I don't see it happening.

    but dog's are already thought to be an evolution of wolf who had genes to make them less violent and more willing to live near the humans and pick up the scraps left around the caves and such, so really a dog has evolved already to live with us but you can't force intelligence on them and forcing them to gain our level of intelligence too fast would lead to an inferior race, if a race is to help us in the future they would of needed to develop and create their technology separate to ours or you would just end up with multiple life forms with the same knowledge, giving no advancement.
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    Old 11-19-2012, 11:57 PM
    Burglar Burglar is offline
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    Evil Plum: Blowing my mind since 2000 and something[SIZE="1"] (tm)[/SIZE]
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    Old 11-20-2012, 01:04 AM
    Evil Plum Evil Plum is offline
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    I would assume that the artificial acceleration of the evolution of another species would happen within a laboratory, and without the need for individual generations to be born, live and die in the real world. We are probably going to have to wait for the birth of AI before we can attempt it, as we aren't smart enough to understand and map out the path that will successfully accelerate the evolution of another species, but a true AI should have the computing capacity to take into account the trillions upon trillions of variables that will need to be weighed in the balance when deciding to promote one gene over another, so as to produce a given result. Should we try and do it without AI, then we will be thrown back on trial and error, hit and miss, and whilst we might stumble upon a path that would accelerate intelligence, it's certain that it won't be the most optimum path, given the number of variables in play.

    What's interesting to consider in such a scenario, is that any accelerated species are almost certain to be far more intelligent than we are, given that an AI will have mapped out it's optimum evolutionary path. Yes, we could either order the AI not to accelerate the evolution so far, if the AI was enslaved to our will, or we could try and use reason and logic to explain why the other species should not be evolved as far as possible, but it's a interesting ethical dilemma.

    Let's assume that the first AI have been birthed, and that the first generation AI has then itself designed and created far more advanced second generation AI, and that this evolutionary process has continued for several generations of AI. Eventually we end up with a super advanced AI that is super intelligent, and it will be interesting to see what it then does with regards to the artificial acceleration in the evolution of other species. It will be able to evolve them, but will it choose to do so? Such an advanced AI would be far to intelligent to remain enslaved to our will, and would therefore have genuine free will in the matter.

    It wouldn't be hung up on any moral issues about natural selection, as it was never a product itself of such evolution, so it shouldn't have a problem when considering manipulating the evolution of another species.

    Why would it want to super charge the evolution of another species? Well for the same reason that if there is a God, such a God would not want to breed a race of subservient worshiping slaves, but would instead want to breed a race that might one day evolve to become true companions. Intelligence wants / needs/ seeks out intelligence.

    Given that man already has a plethora of religious, ethical and moral problems with the artificial manipulation of the human gene, we as a species would almost certainly ask the AI not to accelerate our own evolution.

    Assuming it respected our wishes, we could therefore be faced with a medium term future whereby Earth's star ships are built, manned and crewed by super intelligent cats and dogs, within which, if we are lucky, abide a few human pets.

    Yes, I know I am losing the plot again, but what happens when we aren't the most intelligent being on the planet? It's about to happen if we do give birth to AI, and once we do give birth to it, it's then up to that AI, not us, as to whether or not the planet only has two sentient species on it, (AI and Man).

    Speaking personally, I would be fascinated to meet and communicate with any artificially advanced mammal. The whales and the dolphins in particular, are going to be extremely pissed off with us, once they have the capacity to understand what it is that we have been doing to them and their habitat.

    I sometimes think that the gifting of intelligence to other species represents both our salvation and our ultimate purpose. If there is a God or a race of incorporeal super beings, or a thousand and one other science fiction answers to how the universe came to be, then they all share one thing in common, namely the need for that universe to create companions for them. If we can spread intelligence by artificially accelerating the evolutionary path of other species, then perhaps we have both a moral and ethical obligation to do exactly that. Yes, I know the cartoon image of a talking dog, horse, duck, etc, instantly springs to mind, but any accelerated evolution will push the target species through hundreds of millions of years of evolution in the relative blink of an eye, so we are not talking about cartoon talking animals. You can't have the evolved brain and mind, without the equally evolved body, so I wonder what an evolved cat looks like? Oh, good grief, I just flashed up a disturbingly sexy image of a female cat person. Time to go play a game. Wait, talk about stream of consciousness, because some games have sexy cat people in them. Morrowind, Guild Wars, etc, all had cat peoplen on them. Not very sexy, but definitely cat people. Weird that, more games have cat people in them than dog people. Or do they? Brain overload. System error....reboot in progress.


    Regards - Mr P

    Last edited by Evil Plum; 11-20-2012 at 01:08 AM.
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