Go Back   PC Gamer Forums > Play with PC Gamer > World of Warcraft Guild (EU) > Class Discussion

    Closed Thread
     
    Thread Tools Display Modes
      #41   Report Post  
    Old 12-29-2010, 04:52 PM
    Klogaroth Klogaroth is offline
    Senior Member
     
    Join Date: Jun 2010
    Posts: 475
    Default

    That's not the point Levi. The point is the SAME rogue using an optimal dps spec vs a sub-optimal dps spec.

    Having reviewed the rogue talents and abilities I'm at a complete loss to find any ability which goes off the on weapon damage of your off-hand ecept mutilate, which requires daggers anyway. All I can find is that using a slow off-hand makes shiv more expensive and slows the rate at which you apply your off-hand poison.

    Unless I'm missing a trick here it's a dps loss on paper to use a slow off-hand.

    The single solitary advantage would be in the event that you are spending very little time actually on stuff, so the very few off-hand hits you get in will do more damage over that time if they are larger.
    The window in which this applies is the initial hit and at about 5.2 to 5.3 seconds into combat (based on a 2.6 hitting twice, a 1.8 hitting twice and a 1.4 hitting 3 times before haste applies). Anything after that and the damage of 2 same dps different speed weapons will be separated by poisons. The point at which a 1.4 really comes into it's own is 7 seconds, at which point it has had 5 swings, compared to a 2.6's 2. For info a 1.8 takes 8 seconds to achieve this, and a 2.6 13 seconds.

    So for very short bursts of damage, there is a small case for a slow off-hand. You will only ever really see dps windows this small in a PvP situation, and even then it's going to be fairly common you will have longer than 5.2 seconds of dps time on a target in one go. The danger of using a 2.6 in these sitatuions however is if you have a short window and lose a swing compared to a fast weapon you have a greater risk of deadly poison dropping off should that swing miss.



    EDIT - plus the white damage reasoning above added into the mix.

    Last edited by Klogaroth; 12-29-2010 at 05:39 PM.
      #42   Report Post  
    Old 12-29-2010, 05:59 PM
    leviethan leviethan is offline
    Senior Member
     
    Join Date: Jun 2010
    Posts: 331
    Default

    To note, you should never use crippling poisen in sub, you have waylay as you will be using ambush/backstab, also white damage is not where most your damage comes form in sub pvp its your backstabs, hemo, evisc, rupture (Yes i stack DoTs, its how i work), garrote and ambush.

    The main reason you want a 2.80 is so all these abilities hit a lot harder, and i mean around 2-3k harder, as a dagger would do nothing to help increase these abilities damage, as backstab/ambush is based on your main hands for a dagger to use (To increase damage, as ambush doesnt need a dagger).

    Poisens, in pvp are more for slowing,reducing healing etc, not dealing damage, as they dont do enough to call it your main source
      #43   Report Post  
    Old 12-29-2010, 06:21 PM
    Zael Zael is offline
    Senior Member
     
    Join Date: Jun 2010
    Posts: 234
    Default

    Waylay is a positional based slow, so it's much easier to use crippling poison so you can first slow them and then start using your positional based attacks which is what sub is all about. But even if you want to change crippling to another poison, it's completely pointless because you have a slow off hand so the poisons damage will be completely nerfed.

    You've ignored what both Klog and I have said. I didn't say most of your damage comes from white, I said most of you *off-hand* damage comes from white damage. Again you didn't listen to me when I mentioned the hit chance. Yes if your slow offhand hits it will do more damage then your dagger, but that's not the point. The point is it doesn't happen frequently enough, because you won't be white hit capped you're going to miss with your off hand. Missing with your off hand when it has a fast speed isn't that big of a deal but when you miss with a slow off hand it's a huge deal because it takes so long to hit again.

    The only reason you want a slow main hand as a rogue is if you're using a skill that takes weapon damage into account, and as Klog said there is no subtlety skill that you'll be using that takes off hand weapon damage into account, so there is no benefit to having a slow off hand. None!

    Just to point out, this whole arguement is rediculous. There is no one out there who is using a slow off hand, because of the reasons Cata Klog and I have said.


    Also, damage poisons for Assassination pvp rogues are extremely important and not about slowing or reducing healing.
    __________________
    http://gameviewsonline.blogspot.com

    A blog about games. - Now with increased vigor!

    Updates every Wednesday.

    Last edited by Zael; 12-29-2010 at 06:26 PM.
      #44   Report Post  
    Old 12-29-2010, 06:36 PM
    leviethan leviethan is offline
    Senior Member
     
    Join Date: Jun 2010
    Posts: 331
    Default

    Through my own trial and error i know the way im working it is better, and the reason no one is using a slow off hand is because no one uses sub!
    And hit chance means naff all when your not using your white swings almost ever, i never use shiv because its crap (Only very very occasionally on bears and warriors).
    Waylay should be up 99% of the time, the first few seconds during your open it wont be as you might not start with an ambush, but otherwise you should use hemo once every 15seconds, then the rest is backstabs because if your standing still hitting them from the front you are one the most dumbest people id ever see.


    Just an FYI, i dont know why you argue over pvp stuff, none of you lot pvp on a rogue so it makes no differance to you anyway. (Dont give me the whole 'but other reading this thread...' rubbish because if they care that much they'll whisper me or do the smart thing and look up someone whos good whos live streaming it).
      #45   Report Post  
    Old 12-29-2010, 06:39 PM
    Zael Zael is offline
    Senior Member
     
    Join Date: Jun 2010
    Posts: 234
    Default

    I give up tbh, looking back over the other rogue thread it's just me argueing over everything you've said. You go to no effort looking up anything you say, you just post it and when people show that what you've said is false you just tell them it works better for you, no matter what they say. I'm sick of it tbh and i'm just going to ignore you because it'll be better for the both of us.
    __________________
    http://gameviewsonline.blogspot.com

    A blog about games. - Now with increased vigor!

    Updates every Wednesday.
      #46   Report Post  
    Old 12-29-2010, 06:40 PM
    Darieth Darieth is offline
    Senior Member
     
    Join Date: Jun 2010
    Posts: 912
    Default

    I'm pretty sure we have a rule in PCG that says "don't be a dick". The last paragraph of your last post, Lev, definitely comes under that category.

    Last edited by Darieth; 12-29-2010 at 06:43 PM.
      #47   Report Post  
    Old 12-29-2010, 06:42 PM
    leviethan leviethan is offline
    Senior Member
     
    Join Date: Jun 2010
    Posts: 331
    Default

    If i dont look up about anything i say, how come i have a 2.1k arena rating (Well did last season) on my other realm, before i came here, explain that.

    Also i argue because i have a point, i have a voice and i have the right to speek up when your talking rubbish.
      #48   Report Post  
    Old 12-29-2010, 06:45 PM
    Chewwie Chewwie is offline
    Senior Member
     
    Join Date: Jun 2010
    Posts: 704
    Default

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Darieth View Post
    I'm pretty sure we have a rule in PCG that says "don't be a dick".
    ^^ This. The forum is a place for calm reasoned and thoughtful discussion. Not trolling, arguing or being a dick. Lev, you've been warned. Take heed.
    __________________
      #49   Report Post  
    Old 12-29-2010, 06:47 PM
    leviethan leviethan is offline
    Senior Member
     
    Join Date: Jun 2010
    Posts: 331
    Default

    Im voicing my opinion, thats not trolling unless i said something stupid like combat is good in PvP, thats trolling.
      #50   Report Post  
    Old 12-29-2010, 06:47 PM
    squirt24 squirt24 is offline
    Junior Member
     
    Join Date: Sep 2010
    Location: Warrington UK
    Posts: 28
    Send a message via MSN to squirt24 Send a message via Skype™ to squirt24
    Default

    I dont think anyone follows that rule to well in this guild Darieth

    Ive read through this thread, Levi is a good sub spec pvp rogue, he knows what he's talking about, he backs up what he says with fair evidence, this is just people knocking back everything he says about the class he plays, when one of them doesnt even play it.

    In my opinion (which I am allowed), this isnt fair.
    Closed Thread

    Thread Tools
    Display Modes

    Posting Rules
    You may not post new threads
    You may not post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off

    Forum Jump