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    Old 12-06-2010, 11:43 AM
    Cin Cin is offline
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    Default 25 Man Teams in Cata?

    Iíve only been in the guild a few weeks so I'm sorry of this question has a very obvious answer.
    Why coming up to cata is the whole guild focused on 10mans, with a guild holding over 400 people, with at least 60 or so raiding, can a permanent 25man team not exist? I understand the lack of such a team in wotlk with the lockouts not being shared, but with the new system could this not be an opportunity to bring 25mans back to the forefront?
    I know most of you raiding want to stay raiding together, and maybe you prefer 10mans, perhaps 25s are just to hard to organise and the loot is too hard to keep track of, maybe my question is redundant and plans are in the making.
    Iím just curious, because Iíve been in much, much smaller guilds that got 25 people 5nights a week and despite their problems I think 25mans are the most epic experience you can have in this game.
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    Old 12-06-2010, 11:49 AM
    Aphaeas Aphaeas is offline
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    We had 2 25 man teams in WotLK (from ICC) when I joined, one progression who ran 2 nights a week and one slightly more casual who raided once a week.

    We have not yet decided what is going to happen with 25 mans in Cata. The 10 man teams have set themselves up to start as soon as possible as these are easier to control and start raiding with. Keep an eye on the forums, any information will be posted on here when decisions are made.
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    Old 12-06-2010, 11:49 AM
    Urumqi Urumqi is offline
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    Howdy,

    the focus is on the 10 man teams for a number of reasons:

    1 They are already established
    2 They are easier to organise
    3 There is no real advantage anymore between raiding 10 and 25 as the gear that drops is the same
    4 The shared lockout will make it even harder to ensure whe have 25 toons avaiable for the raid

    There are prob a few i forgot.

    That said the plan is to still ahve a 25 man raid every month or so, just so we can all raid with each other rather than our set teams. More info will be released later into cataclysm when 25 mans are a viable option
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    Old 12-06-2010, 12:18 PM
    Chewwie Chewwie is offline
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cin View Post
    Why coming up to cata is the whole guild focused on 10mans, with a guild holding over 400 people, with at least 60 or so raiding, can a permanent 25man team not exist? I understand the lack of such a team in wotlk with the lockouts not being shared, but with the new system could this not be an opportunity to bring 25mans back to the forefront?
    We spent most of Wrath doing 25 man raids. We ran 2 full 25 man raid teams during ICC, as well as 5 10 man raid lockouts. The threads in this sub-forum attest to that. However, it is the changes to the lockout system in Cata that has forced everyone to reconsider what they would prefer to do, because you can't do a raid on 10 and 25 in the same week anymore. You do actually have to choose. I don't want to go into the politics of 25 man raiding, but it is most definitely harder to organise and many people feel that at least initially, they would like to dip their toes into Cata raiding in 10 man first. As has already been stated, we do plan to run 25 man raids, but not initially and probably not all the time.

    I do agree that as a format, 10 man raiding is less efficient (and undoubtedly less Epic) than 25man for a guild of this size, however, it's extremely doubtful that we'll have more than 25 members 'raid ready' before the Christmas period anyway. Anyone who wishes to debate this issue with me, send me a PM - I'll give you a history lesson which explains that even during Wrath, showered with Epic gear, at times, we still couldn't muster a roflstomping 25 man raid. As a guild, we've become very succesful in 10 man teams. That may change in Cata, but until we're there, raiding and kill bosses, we just don't know for sure. It maybe that everyone hates 10 man and wants to go back to 25 mans. We'll have to wait and see.

    Ofc, most of the above is just my perspective. It would be interesting to read comment from others. For now, 10 mans and the occasional 25 man (say, once per month) are all that has been slated in. I would point you to [URL="http://www.pcgamer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4398"]this[/URL] thread for a little more detail.
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    Old 12-06-2010, 12:40 PM
    Klogaroth Klogaroth is offline
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    Actually the fact we are such a guild of this size is the reason 10 man raiding is better.

    We have yet to reach uber-guild size (there are guilds of around 3000 players about) but have enough people that there will be a wide range of interests in the guild.

    This is especially true considering we are very open about who we invite.

    We don't focus on an aspect of the game, we are the PC Gamer guild. That means that we will have a sizeable enough playerbase to cater for a range of interests, but not quite big enough to consistently have 25 man teams where everyone is on the same page.
    I've yet to see consistent 25 man team made entirely of hardcore raiders, similarly I've yet to see a 25 man without at least a handful of the guilds more hardcore players.
    10 man allows us to offer a more diverse range of playstyles, maybe if we have a big enough memberlist in a few months we can do the same with 25 mans.
    There's also personal preferrence. Quite a few people have said that 10 man raiding is their favourite. That makes it easier to make several 10 mans with the occasional 25 than make a 25 man which people don't turn up to because they want to raid 10. An oversubbed 10 is still a better situation than an undersubbed 25. As said previously if interest in raiding increases we might not have problems with undersubbed 25s, then they would become more viable.


    I also am a big fan of the occassional 25 man thing. That way it feels like an event, so hopefully people will really want to go and look forward to it.


    Final point. Regardless of how you approach it the enitrety of tier 11 is now progression raiding. ANYONE raiding in the next couple of months is a progression raider. That being the case I wish everyone the best of luck in beating some brand new bosses for the first time in months.

    Last edited by Klogaroth; 12-06-2010 at 12:49 PM.
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    Old 12-06-2010, 01:15 PM
    Spectrus Spectrus is offline
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    First, one of the major issues with 25 man raids is class diversity. Most raids are made up of:

    2/3 Tanks
    15/16 DPS
    5/6 Healers

    In contrast, you get a wider range of classes with several 10 man teams. For example. with three 10 man teams you get around:

    6 Tanks
    15 DPS
    9 Healers

    Second, without question 25 player raids they are harder to organise. It is much easier to arrange several separate 10 man groups on different days. This also gives people more choice over when they would prefer to raid.

    Third, the 'politics' of 25 player raiding are problematic. When you are in small group of 10 people who know each other it is easier to avoid 'drama' than with a much larger more anonymous 25 player raid. In PCG at least, people tend to be more forgiving of mistakes and there is more team spirit in 10 player raids.

    Fourth, mixing casual and hardcore players for progression raids can be frustrating for both groups, especially if this is the only option for raiding. Casual players don't want to be shouted at and hardcore players often get annoyed because they want to raid more seriously.

    As you might guess, I support the arrangements that the officers have put forward for Cata. I think it will allow the different 10 man groups to focus on what they enjoy, whilst making sure that we can still come together every now and then as a guild for some sporadic 25 player fun.

    Last edited by Spectrus; 12-06-2010 at 01:17 PM.
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    Old 12-06-2010, 01:49 PM
    Darieth Darieth is offline
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    I thought I'd better respond; for the last few months of ICC, I was leading the majority of the 'progression' 25-man raids, as well as leading one of our 10-man teams. I'm also the Officer that proposed we focus on 10-man raiding as the default, with an occasional (one in 4) week of 25-man action, where then 10-man teams combine forces for some epic battles.

    I have a couple of primary motivations for this approach. The first is that PCG is completely unlike other guilds. We purposely schedule events, including raids, to try to cater for as diverse a range of players as possible. In the last year, we've offered regular raiding opportunities in the afternoons, late at night, in the evening and at weekends. We've had hardcore teams which have killed the toughest encounters, and more casual teams that have given people an easy introduction to raiding. In this way, we've been able to offer raiding to far more than 25 people each week.

    Our 25-man raiding, however, has always been at the same time, on set days. This is obviously because its the time that most players can make. That was OK in WotLK, because those players who can't do 8pm-11pm on a Sunday and Monday could just play 10-man with everyone else at other times. In Cata, that is impossible, and I think that making our 'main' raid a 25-man endeavour would exclude too many people.

    The second reason is that organising 25-man raids is a lot of work, and now that the loot has been equalised, in my opinion that's wasted effort. I make no secret of the fact that I want to raid 'seriously'; that means playing with other players who put in the same effort I do in preparation and being the best at their class. Its much easier to find 9-13 other players who share that view and are willing to work together than it is 24.

    I've always thought that 25-man raids feel more 'epic', which is why I'm really enthusiastic about the best raiding teams throwing aside tribal differences and joining forces for one week each month. It will feel more like a special event. Lots of people commented how much fun 'hardcore week' was when we finally smashed Ulduar25, and I'm hoping for more funtimes like that in future.
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    Old 12-06-2010, 01:02 PM
    Belimawr Belimawr is offline
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    25man raids are fun and I would like to see more in cata, I do prefer the 10 man raids as it does fell like you have a bigger part and achieve more in a 10man raid, as quite often in a 25man raid you just feel like a random person stuck in the middle of everything going on.

    I'm sure this veiw point probably isn't taken by the tank/healers as they still preform a very vital role, but for DPS (not saying it is any less important you still need to beat the enrages) I always just felt like you where contributing more in a 10man raid than 25man raid.

    as for reward the only difference I can see is the 25man raids will get you about 33% more valour per boss kill, so this would allow you to gear up from the valour vendor slightly quicker, but as said the logistics of getting a group together and working well together would probably make the slight increase to valour a very minor point.
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    Old 12-06-2010, 01:56 PM
    Akee Akee is offline
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    [URL="http://www.pcgamer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4398"]This [/URL]is my post on our plans. I only link it in case you didn't see it
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    Old 12-06-2010, 02:36 PM
    Cin Cin is offline
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Akee View Post
    [URL="http://www.pcgamer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4398"]This [/URL]is my post on our plans. I only link it in case you didn't see it
    No I actually hadnít seen that thread until it was linked here, and I suppose it does answer my question. I see overwhelmingly that everyone thinks 10mans are the way to go, and I agree after reading your responses. Although I think most people would still love to get the 25man experience and achievements, and the week of 25mans a month is an interesting idea.
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